The first thing you must do is read the article you picked up from me. Then, respond to the following.
To quote De Tocqueville, "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child." He also says that nations must be viewed in the same light. What does he mean by this? Are there advantages and/or disadvantages to this?
If De Tocqueville were to come back to America today, what do you think he would write? Would he be disappointed in what he saw?
By stating all nations should be seen in the cradle of the child, De Tocqueville means that all nations' foundation and origin will affect what the country will end up being, just as a child is greatly affected by their beginning stages of life and their upbringing. This has it's advantages if a nation has a strong start and is set on good foundation but it can be a disadvantage if the nation is started off badly and that sets a negative tone for the beginning. If De Tocqueville saw America today I think he would be proud of how far our government has come and adapted but I think he would also be disappointed in the lack of unity our country has.
ReplyDeleteDe Tocqueville’s quote I believe is referring to how a country is greatly formed in infancy just as children are shaped during childhood. If you never teach children manners then most likely it will grow up to be perceived as rude and looked down upon in society. In the same respects if a country is established on faulty values or beliefs it will show in following years. When people first came to America they had a united cause, they were fleeing from prejudices which is why I think our country is set up in a way that considers others wants and need. All nations are shaped during their beginning and regardless of that foundation they must be seen for what values they were founded on. To understand the thinking behind present day actions and lawmaking we can often find a tie back to our founding, which is where the idea originated. The same goes for most other nations, you can relate present day actions back to what values they started out following. The advantages/ disadvantages to this are basically that some nations/country’s beliefs and founding values are more accepting than others. If he was to come to America now I believe he would appreciate how much we have stuck to our roots in our original founding. Also though I believe he’d be displeased with some of our newer customs and lack of older values.
ReplyDeleteBy stating that "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child," De Tocqueville is theorizing that just as a man's character must be viewed in the light of his origin, a nation's present actions and beliefs must be viewed as a projection of that country's beginnings. The minute a man turns eighteen, his character does not all of a sudden blossom into what it will be for the rest of his adult life. Character is a culmination of everything that he experienced and learned, starting from the moment he was born. A country is no different. From the very first government leaders and documents, a country is building upon the identity that it will fully come in to.
ReplyDeleteNations must be viewed in the same light because, just as we should judge all men on the same character scale regardless of wealth or position, nations deserve the same equal treatment. They all began and they all have the opportunity to grow into something great. If we view a dictatorship in a different lense than that of a democracy, we are downplaying the negativity of the dictatorship and not properly elevating the positivity of the democracy as a superior form of government in the same manner.
The advantages of these beliefs are simple: viewing all countries from their infancy and in the same light is the fairest and clearest way of all. A possible disadvantage could be that some countries that started long ago (B.C., even) will have a harder time overcoming their beginnings to excel like their newer, more progressive counterparts. Thus, they may always fall behind in world judgement.
If De Tocqueville viewed America as it is today, I believe he would see the same ideals that we were founded on flourishing. America still has a strong sense of democracy and the people's voice in government. Newer generations may be changing what it means to be American, but our old ideals are still steadfastly engrained in our lives. This can be seen by who we choose as our leader. Have we had a president yet that hasn't effused Americanism? De Tocqueville, if anything, would be disappointed in the lack of family values and want to immortalize ourselves in our great-grandchildren. With more emphasis than ever on the Now, Americans are finding it harder and harder to think about the distant future.
When De Tocqueville said, "the entire man, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child", he meant you can see exactly what kind of man the child will become from its actions and environment. He uses this as an anology to nations; if you look at a nation or country's origin, then you may easily predict whether the nation will fail or be successful. One may also predict from a nation's beginnings, what the country's beliefs and "characteristics" will be as a whole. This is an advantage, because if in the early years of the nation, citizens and leaders recognize its going in the wrong direction, then they can get proactive, and attempt to correct their faults and previous mistakes.
ReplyDeleteIf De Tocqueville were to come back today, I think he would be elated because we as a country prove his point about being able to tell how a nation would turn out by its origins. I believe he would then write about his theory, and why it was correct.
De Tocqueville's quote, can be generally thought of as speaking of how man's upbringing and foundations can generally determine the "shape" or "outcome" of his adult life as with the formations of new nations. Their first major influences come from the principles that their parents teach them as infants. Nations are the same way. However they start out due to the influences of the founders in charge, whether it be a positive or negative influence, may determine whether or not the nation will prosper later on in life.
ReplyDeleteIf De Tocqueville were to come back today, I believe he would be pleased with how America has stuck to it's main core values, but in another light, I believe he would be displeased with how we've begun to separate with our beliefs and are not as unified anymore.
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ReplyDeleteDe Tocqueville means that a country’s defining characteristics are more of a result of the environment during its formation instead of the things that happen to it after it’s formed. It is not entirely aware that it’s being affected, but nevertheless, the mentality of the citizens and their progeny are forever influenced by the years occurring before it could even act on its own. America’s advantage is that it was formed by people who were all starting with new slates in life and all toiling for survival. The notions of independence and opportunity for success took root. The the disadvantage is a country with wealth as an objective, and that the wealth changes hands quickly and often.
ReplyDeleteIf he came to America now I think he would probably be disappointed that not everybody utilizes their opportunity to vote. On the lighter side, he’d also probably reaffirm his original views, especially of what America values. Today most Americans still value individualism and equality of opportunity. Also, though many people agree with some forms of welfare, most abhor the idea of complete socialism. I’m not sure if he’d be disappointed as much as “I saw that coming” if he commented on how the love of money has tweaked an American dream to where people aren’t happy with what they have but always want to be richer. America’s really materialistic, and it shows in the consumerism and in the recent bursting of the credit bubble. Always striving for more is a virtue and a vice; at some point people should stop and be happy with what they have. On the other hand, people shouldn’t be so complacent that everyone else has to keep them afloat financially.I think De Tocqueville would think of the former as the lesser evil though.
I think that De Tocqueville is comparing that the early stages in life are very crucial to the development of man, as well as they are in a nation. How a nation is set up will set the standards of how it will prosper from then on. All of this is to say that a strong reliable foundation is important for a long-lasting structure.
ReplyDeleteThere could be disadvantages to this, referring back to the child-raising analogy, you could very well instill your child with good values and morals and only hope that they will do right by you when they are off in the world by themselves, but there is no guarantee that they will do what you expect them to. Same thing goes for building a nation. Our forefathers built this nation on their morals and values, and over the years I'm sure we've swayed a little from those.
If De Tocqueville were to return today, I think he would be proud of how far America has come and how we've stayed with our main beliefs and values of democracy. I think, however, he'd be disappointed with our lack of unity and how much seperation there is of our nation.
Posting for Cortez
ReplyDeleteIn De Tocqueville's quote i believe that he is saying you must take into consideration every event that shaped the nation in the past before you judge what it is in the present. The ideas and ideals of past citizens will rub off and will trickle down through generations and become the customs of present and future generations. So i think that he is saying that you cant just look at the here and now, you have to look at what made the present like it is.
If De Tocqueville came back to see America today I think he would have mixed feelings. I think he would be a little disappointed at the lack of unity, but he was a student of human nature so i dont think he would be surprised.
@Madison, I agree with your post and what tou said about De Tocqueville being displeased with some of our newer customs. I think that America today is a completley diffrent nation then it was in the early 1800's.
De Tocqueville's point is that, what happens in the beginning greatly effects the outcome. This is exactly what happened with the United States. Because our Founding Fathers so badly wanted to breakaway from Britain's government, they knew by which standards they didn't want to live by. They were able to create the democratic government we still live in today. In my opinion, this was an advantage because we had a source to look back on and see the reasons behind the decisions we made for our country, to see what worked and what didn't. Knowing our history is crucial for the future. If we don't know our past, who's to say we won't make the same mistakes again?
ReplyDeleteIf De Tocqueville was able to see our country today, I think he would be surprised by how little our government has changed. To see that we still live by the same fundamentals that we did in his time. I think he would see that, even though we may have vastly different opinions of our government, we can still come together for a common purpose (such as 9/11), just as we did in the founding of our country.
In Tocqueville's quot, "the entire man, is so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child, what I think he means is that, based on the child's childhood environment will determine that child's actions and becoming of a man/women. As far as the nation, just like a child when its first born, people looks at their surrounding, the people determine the nation, so if we give the nation a bad look then people will look at it in a bad way.
ReplyDeleteIf he came back today, I think that he will and will not be happy with the nation, as far as how he described it, in a since its kind of still like that, but on the other hand, we are still a very diverse nation.
The disadvantages would be, you're judging a book by its cover, unless you have really gotten a chance to experince time in that nation or have gotten a chance to know the man or women you can't really say what it is capable of, the advantages are you're first impression is what matters most, but it doesn't really matter unless you've had time with in that nation or with that child.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, De Tocqueville's quote reflects the idea that an infant is conditioned and shaped by it's environment and it's interactions. As a human infant is taught by the things placed in it's cradle and the things it is exposed to, so is an infant nation. A nation is shaped by experiences, starting from the discovery of the land, until it's fall. Constantly the new nation is understanding new things and adapting to handle new situations while also adapting to a new people to which it shall govern. Just as with a child, every interaction shapes and molds into the final product. This means that even as the nation grows, it will always be learning and adapting. There is no way to predict the future of a nation by the way it begins because if it adapts well to changes and ideas then it will be successful.
ReplyDeleteIf Alexis De Tocqueville were to come to modern America, I think he would be astonished by the new policies and political ideas that have formed our society; although impressed, I believe he would be slightly disappointed by our lack of unity, the struggle of factions, and the distribution of wealth in the nation.
What De Tocqueville meant by saying, "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child" is that what ever is instilled in the child and how it was raised is a direct reflection of how the child will end up later on in life. He uses this scenario to explain that a country is just like a child, and that whatever you found your country on is a direct reflection of the direction your country will go in and intern how your country will turn out to be. There are many advantages and disadvantages to this theory. It is an advantage because if you instill great policies and have a strong foundation for your country it will be successful. On the other hand, a disadvantage is that if your country is poorly founded and the polices are not strong then your country will not be successful. If De Tocqueville was to see America today I believe he would be proud of how government have adapted to the changes of our time and how strong and organized our government has become based on how our country was founded. I feel that he would be disappointed in some of the things we have allowed to happen and how we have strayed away from some of the values that we were founded on.
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ReplyDeleteWhen De Tocqueville said that “man is to be seen in the cradle of a child” he me meant that a person, very early on in life, is being affected and shaped by their surroundings, and that you can link a man’s character back to his early childhood. He said that you can observe a nation in the same way that a nation’s culture and customs can be connected to the early stages of its development, which I think is an advantage, because it gives the ability to look back and see what has worked in the past and what hasn’t. It allows for people to learn from the mistakes that have been made throughout history so that they can progress. If De Tocqueville were to come to America today I think that he would note that America has not changed much in the way the way we think. We still believe that all men are equal and we continue to fight for what we believe in.
ReplyDeleteAlexi De Tocqueville means that to understand a child and where the child came from you have to go back to the beginning of that child’s life. So he is saying to understand the nation and how it is formed you must go back to the beginning to understand. You have to study the beginning, middle, and end to truly know how that nation got to where it is. I believe that this is a great advantage, because you learn more about that nation. We as Americans study are own history to learn about our nation's foundation.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Tocqueville would be disappointed in what he saw as far a political wise. The reason I say that is, because he came in 1831 and saw where we were. So to come back today and see where we are now he would be thrilled. What he wouldn't like would be some of our new personal Customs.
I agree with Amber and Madison on the idea that Tocquevill won't be disappointed about are government but about the way we govern ourselves.
ReplyDeleteAlexis De Tocqueville means by the statement "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child", that people need to look at their beginnings to be able to see how to get along in the future but also be able to live without worrying about what happened then. Later on De Tocqueville makes the connection from his previous statement about man and compares it to the nation and how a democratic nation must look to its past to see how he is to function today and tomorrow and that there is no guarantee about anything so one needs to follow their original ideals as they move on.
ReplyDeleteIf Alexis De Tocqueville where to come back today and see how the united states today i think he would be happy with the policies and how they overall function in the country but would be saddened by how much of the lack of unity holds this country back and how political gain and social status affects politics and takes away from the real goa.
Alexia De Tocqueville meant by saying, "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child", that in order to understand where a man has been, you must start from the BEGINNING, beginning of his childhood. Interpreting that in order to understand the means of how a nation has come to be, you must look at how it started off. If it started off in a good and orderly way, chances are that it will grow to be that way. But if it started off in a and and disorderly way, it will form in such that way. In my opinion, I think he was saying that before you judge a nation, you must study and understand what it has been through to be where it is and become what it has became.
ReplyDeleteIn De Tocqueville's quote, "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child." I think that he basically means that a country must start from the bottom and grow with time. In simple terms I think it means that if we start off right as a country in the beginning then we will be molded into a great successful country. Just like with children, if you teach them well while they are young they will most likely grow into good individuals.
ReplyDeleteIf De Tocqueville came back today I think he would write a book on the opposite of what he wrote the first time. he would probably think that this country was a disgrace and failing. Well not failing, but hitting unnecessary bumps in the road if you will. So yes, I think he would be very disappointed in what America has shaped out to be.
By his statement about all nations should be seen in the cradle of the child, De Tocqueville is simply saying that the way the nation was formed and the values its built upon will affect what the country's future of what it will later become, as a child is greatly affected by their parents whom set a foundation and structure for how they should live, will determine how they live when they grow up. This has an up and a down side. If the country has a pretty solid foundation to build off of on and set standards then yes the country will be able to prosper in later years. On the flip side though if the foundation is weak and creates no kind of standard to live by or structure in general then the country is completely vunderable to revolutions and chaos by the people to change all that the country is. If De Tocqueville saw America today he would be amazed at the strides we've made from where we were to were we are now.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Merrill's pov on the meaning behind DeTocqueville's statement.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, I think that nations should be viewed in the same light, because they all start off in a certain way and have to learn from there mistakes, to better themselves. I think a advantage would be seeing them in the same light as being treating equally and not seeing forth for one more than another. A disadvantage would be for some nations it is hard to go in a opposite direction to better, considering there beginning, so they have to worry about how the will be seen in the light.
ReplyDeleteI also think that if De Tocqueville saw America told he would be done away with what we have came to be and would want to research even more on what we have been through,sacrificed, and the decisions we have made to be where we are today.
ReplyDeleteAlexis De Tocqueville means that the sucesss or failure of a nation depends on the origin, environment, leaders and the people that make it up. He compared a nation to a child because when upbringing a child the first few years of development are the most imperative and will determine what it will become in its later years; likewise, a nation.
ReplyDeleteI believe that he would be ecstatic to see that he was correct and to see all the improvements and changes that has taken place since that time period. I don't think he would be anywhere near as happy about the social and religious issues that are going on and the lack of unity amongst the nation today. I think he would write about his theory and how he was correct.
I agree with Mercedes, I also think De Tocqueville would be proud of us, but would be disappointed in how we are so separated and not as united as we should be.
ReplyDeleteI strongly agree with Hayden's interpretation of De Tocqueville statement.
ReplyDeleteDe Tocqueville's quote about seeing an entire man in the cradel of a child is a direct comparison to the maturity of a nation. The things a child is exposed to and the experiences he/she has during childhood will ultimately affect who he/she becomes as a person. This is the same with nations. A nation goes through so much in it's early stages that it's future is pretty much shaped by those events. Trial and error is a big part of the maturation of a nation as it is for the growth of man. I believe that this can be an advantage and a disadvantage. If a nation starts off strong then those basic principles that the country was founded on will carry them on to even more success; but in the event where a problem decides to present itself, then will the leaders be ready to handle it despite not ever having to face a problem?? On the other hand, if a nation has a hard time at the beginning but continues to get stronger, then the rough start it had may make it even stronger in the long run. That would only be the case if the founders decided to tough it out and keep trying. With weak leaders, this wouldn't be the case because they would give up, making it a disadvantage to the nation.
ReplyDeleteI believe that if he came back to the U.S. then he would be satisfied with how much our government gas grown. He'd also appreciate the fact that our country still runs on those basic democratic principles that the founders started out with.
When Toucqueville stated, "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of a child", he was talking about how the environment and beliefs that the child is brought up around will determine the actions and the type of person that the child will grow up to be. With that being said, the same is with the American government. Our fourfathers, so to speak, are the parents, and the American government is the child. They all wanted what they thought was best for it, so they continuously enstilled the values of freedom, natural rights, and justice. So of course the American government would be the same way and be opposed to anything that was different from its beliefs and values. The advantages of this would be that the government would have a strong foundation, but the disadvantages would be the unwillingness to change, even if it were to make a change for the better. That's how factions, Federalists, and Anti- Federalists came along. They all had different thoughts about what would be better for the government. But all their differences would somehow have to work together to form a government that would help everyone.
ReplyDeleteI think that if Tocqueville were to come back today, he would somewhat disappointed, but for the most part he would be pleased. He would write about how things have somewhat changed for the better because more people have equal rights. He would write about how slavery is over and how each man has an equal opportunity to get an education and become someone great, although some have better opportunities than others. He would be disappointed in how money has made men greedy and dishonest, but how that America has still managed to become the greatest nation in the world.
@da'shelle
ReplyDeleteI agree with how you interpreted the quote. I think we basically said the same thing : ) I agree that it is harder for those nation to go in the opposite direction if they start off rough. That's when the ability of the leadership is truly shown.
I agree with Ben M., Jennifer, and John on their interpretaions of Alexis de Tocqueville's statement about the man and the American government being similar in their infancy and childhood.
ReplyDeleteI am posting late because I have not had internet access until now.
ReplyDeleteThe meaning of the quote from De Tocqueville is that a person should have instilled in them the qualities deemed necessary for their adult lives from the moment they enter this world, based on a societies certain moral understanding. He says that the nation must be viewed in the same light because as I've already stated, a nation is a collection its people, therefore the same rules apply. A disadvantage that I could see in this is having an erred system of beliefs that is being utilized for this purpose.
I think De Tocqueville would disapprove of American society today. He would write about the masses of people without purpose or strong moral standing, and how this is a lack of "cradle" watching. An example of something he might point out may be all of the young parents today that have young parents themselves would continually loose knowledge about the correct moral raising of a child after many generations of this cycle.
I got home at exactly five this Sunday. The hotel didn't have free wifi. That's too bad =(
ReplyDeleteI think that De Tocqueville meant that who a person will become, and who they already are is determined by the foundations they are created from, and the environment that shapes them. I think he is insinuating that who and what you are bred from determine what you are capable of, and what you are going to become through birth alone, along with the environment that surrounds you (the two are directly related to one another). This shows the significance of the cradle. This also applies to the country as whole by the same concept. What determines what the country is and what it will become is its roots and environment.
I think that it would be extremely hard for De Tocqueville to have an account of America today that wasn't negative. I think this would be due to the monumental differences in every aspect of life in America that would simply astonish him. Over the course of time we have seen that to some extent humans frown upon the idea of change. I think it would be easy to assume that the changes from when he saw America to now would be too great for him to handle. The United States has indisputably been the most progressive and productive nation in the past two centuries, spawning from a scrabbling nation of farmers to the industrial champions of the world and then to a declining superpower of disunity. For the most part I think De Tocqueville would have to appreciate how efficiently this nation has grown over the years. There have been mistakes yes, but for the whole it has been undeniably successful up to this point.
I have a reason why I am posting late: Computer's internet got messed up and I could not log in sorry.
ReplyDelete"The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child." I believe De Tocqueville meant that what the nation has been built up on is what the nation is today. The nations morals and values that they established are what makes our nation today
When De Tocqueville said nations must be viewed in the same light he basically means that all nations should be judged in the same way. Just like people as a whole should see each other the same so should nations be seen as being the same. This could be a disadvantage and an advantage because if a nation is seen as being a poor nation then so can other nations. If a nation is doing well then so shall other nations.
ReplyDeleteIf De Tocqueville was to come back today I think he would be disappointed and happy. He would be disappointed because in the article he said he knew of no other country,indeed, where the love of money had taken a stronger hold on the affections of men and people in today's generation love their money!! I think he would be happy because our government has come a long way from where they came and He would write that even though the country's affection is money, the country still is based on the same morals and values from where the foundation was made.
ReplyDeleteI agree with mercedez in that he would be disappointed because were more separated than we were before, but when I come to think of it are we really? Back in the days of slavery they did harsh things to African Americans that do not exist as much today! (:
ReplyDelete@MRS Matherson, you still have not emailed me back about that assignment out of the book history book
ReplyDeleteI’m posting super late because I hadn’t a clue about a due time.
ReplyDeleteDe Tocqueville’s quote,” The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of a child.” He also says nations must be viewed in the same light.
De Tocqueville is referring to nations and man as being permanently influenced by their contacts with the outside world. A nation’s history certainly develops the culture and beliefs of it’s future citizens, although this reality may not be known to them. Children learn, as do nations. Children develop who they are from what they are exposed to and what circumstances were present during their birth and growth. A child’s defining characteristics are embedded early in life. An advantage to this would be the progression of a nation, a growing nation that learns and thrives.
I think De Tocqueville would be displeased with the materialism the majority of the U.S. clings to for comfort. I don’t think it would surprise him though. The equality of U.S. citizens has left room for individual expression. He would see how the same principles that drive American society today, wealth, status, drove American society from the beginning.
@ Andrew, I liked your point that linked a child's environment to it's innate qualities from birth.
ReplyDelete@ Ben, I completely agree that De Tocqueville would be displeased with the materialism exhibited in our nation.
Im posting late because i didnt have any internet access.
ReplyDeleteI think what Tocqueville meant in his statement, "The entire man is, so to speak, to be seen in the cradle of the child", is that whatever a child is brought up around is how they will be when they are older. So their evironment shapes their personality somewhat. When he says nations must be viewed in the same light i think he means basically how you view a person, you should view the nation.
If Tocqueville were to come back today i think he would be happy to see how much things have changed. He would also be happy to see that the foundation that we grew from is still in effect, like as far as goals and values.
I think the disadvantages would be that your basically judging a book by its cover, as stated by another classmate, and that's never a good thing.
@Paris, i totally agree with you on your point about him coming back. I think he would be rather satisfied to.
ReplyDelete@dashelle i agree with everything you said, especially the part where you were like, " they all start off in a certain way and have to learn from there mistakes, to better themselves."
ReplyDelete@ Jennifer. I think it's interesting the way you refer to the concept of "starting off right." So following that line of thought, do you think America started off right if we've ended up disappointing? I wonder what De Tocqueville considered the birth of France. France was a monarchy, now overthrown by a bloody revolution - so would the cradle of France be the atmosphere of the French Revolution or earlier when the monarchy started?
ReplyDeleteThe little that I did understand of this article was that nations “births” make them who they are. America was founded on certain principles that it still holds today. Tocqueville states that all nations should be viewed equally but I am not sure if that is really possible. Although a nation's birth is the biggest part of shaping it, a person must look at the overall growth and life of a nation to understand what it stands for. As Merrill said this can be an advantage if a nation starts off on a good step but if they are founded with a weak government and lack of unity then it will be a disadvantage. If Tocqueville were to come back today he would be disappointed with the two main political parties for their leadership of this country.
ReplyDelete@MERILL I agree with you 100% about how you think De Tocqueville would feel if he were to see America today.
ReplyDeleteSo sorry to say, but I can't agree with you on that TMeeks!! De Toqcqueville may have only seen what it was like in the times of 1831, but you should really think about the prospective he would gain with a view of 2010. Today, we should ALL be able to agree that we as a whole, that our nation is NOT the united front that it used to be.
ReplyDelete@Jessica referring to Jennifer. In posing that question to Jennifer, would you be open to relaying your thoughts on that issue? Do you think that, so to speak, America started off right?
ReplyDeleteTo Jessica,
ReplyDeleteWhat I garnered from your post is that you believe that a person as well as a nation is determined by its inherent environment. I agree, but I think that there is a possibility that De Tocqueville had another meaning to the quote in addition to the one you have described. Perhaps he meant that not only is the man and the country shaped by their environment, but that their identities and capabilities are partially predetermined by their foundations or origins, and not entirely by the factors around them. As an example, De Tocqueville may think that a man is who he is, and what he will be based upon the people who brought him into the world. If your parents are gutless and cowardly with no standing moral fiber, than perhaps no matter your environment you will naturally gravitate towards your instinctive roots. The same could be said for a country. If a country is founded by men with flawed values and a twisted sense of political righteousness, than perhaps the country will reflect that as it grows upon that basis. Perhaps De Tocqueville was not only referencing environment with the cradle imagery, but that men and countries are at least to some extent predetermined by the foundations that support them. Sorry if you acknowledged that already and it just flew over my head, but it was just an imaginative hypothesis I wondered about as I read your post, which was good enough to give me a decent blog response.
@Amani, you put a z on the end of my name? :)
ReplyDelete@Lnz, I liked your child nation and parent nation analogy.
@Jennifer, do you think De Tocqueville would have any positive remarks about our government today?
@ LNZ: Though I agree that you can interpret De Tocqueville was referring to certain parent nations influencing their child nations, I don't think what he meant could be limited to just that. A lot of nations do not have parent nations and their behaviors today are shaped solely by the beginnings of their nation. Also, how much of America do you think has been shaped by Great Britain? Other than our distrust in gov't and our love of liberty, can you think of any other political culture we have picked up from them? I think that's an interesting thought that would be great to explore. I think people often forget about our parent nation and how different we are from them today.
ReplyDelete@ Julian: I didn't really understand what you meant when you said that a disadvantage could be having an erred system of beliefs being utilized for the rest of their life. Are you saying if a person starts off bad or in a negative environment, they will be bad forever? What is your take on nature vs. nurture.
To Lyndsey: I agree that we as a nation aren't unified enough on a daily basis. Maybe it would help if everyone stayed true to the values and principles our country was founded upon. If we had a better understanding of everything our founders had given up in order to obtain the freedoms we have today, we would think less about our own selfish ideals and more about our nation as a whole.
ReplyDeleteJennifer, I disagree with the point made that the country is failing. There are always going to be bumps in the road, and I think that overcoming them is all part of the growth of our country. We all must learn from past mistakes. I think it shows from recent events that Americans still have very strong beliefs and are willing to stand up for them.
ReplyDeleteMercedes and kind of Mona, I didn't mean completely failing. Just not as great as he probably wanted it to be. It seemed like he may have expected a lot if he wrote a book about it. But Mercedes, I think he would have had SOMETHING positive to say but not completely positive. He may have been disappointed in the way we handle some things. I don't think his view was based on "learning from mistakes" as a whole, I think it was based more on "growing". But I do like how Mona states that he may think that "America has not changed much in the way the way we think." And I also agree with how Mercedes says that he would be disappointed with the lack of unity. I agree with what both of you said, I think that is what I was trying to say, but it came off a little strong...
ReplyDeleteNancy,
ReplyDeleteSorry for my vagueness. I simply meant that if the consensus of a society was to follow a particular doctrine that unbeknownst to the followers would have negative long term effects on society, and would consequently teach the youth not to think outside this doctrine, then healing these negative effects would prove much more difficult for future generations.
I don't believe this would be the case if the youth were allowed to decide what is right for themselves over the course of their first decades of life. Of course this is not practical because it would require equal and great amounts of resources, opportunities, and experiences for all for this to be a successful method.
You just can't win.
As for nature vs. nurture, I believe that human society by now has the full ability to overcome most of the instinctive characteristics from nature. The motivation to do this however is determined by one's experience and exposure. My stand on it is that in modern culture one should be able to overcome any hereditary traits through the training of the mind, if one wishes to do so. There are unlimited resources for one to be able to understand and control every aspect of life (obviously I am not referring to any essential traits for survival). But whether or not one is exposed to the opportunities to utilize these resources depends on upbringing, nurturing, and experiences. I also think it is quite possible for someone to "naturally" have the ability to expose themselves, no matter the situation. This requires (from birth) intense attentiveness and curiosity, or maybe just genuine appreciation and not taking anything for granted.
@everybody really
ReplyDeleteI've noticed that most everyone has been able to agree that Tocqueville would be disappointed with unity in American government. I think that this is a huge issue but maybe it is better this way. If we were to all have the same beliefs then America would not be who it is today. Political parties could probably work together a little better but it all comes down to how much you are willing to sacrifice for your government. Although I believe that America should stay centered around the beliefs that it was founded on I think it is a beautiful thing that we can live in unity without having to be completely united. (If that makes since)
@ Lena I like the point you made about 9/11. I think that such times force Americans to be more united and to realize that we are all equal. These hardships are necessary, although tragic, in that they bring people together and allow people to symphasize with others who they previously viewed as too different. I don't know if I am explaining this right so I will just stop there.
Ok so I swear up and down I posted this today in the library during lunch, but it gave me that "URL too large screen" and it did the same thing the last two times and still posted my blog and I justhome from work and was on to see if anyone replied to mine and realized it didn't go through so...
ReplyDelete@ Paris- I agree with you on what you said about De Tocqueville being pleased that America has stuck with it's original government outlines. I mean he had an notion that flaws would be made otherwise he wouldn't have compared it to a child. Not saying he'd agree or condone any of them , but I doubt it'd shock him.
Hör upp allihopa. Är att respektera alla, oavsett ras, religion eller andra kulturella Irland.
ReplyDelete@ Megan, I really like the point you made about things possibly being better with our lack of unity. Yet, even though we don't agree on all the same things, we can still live together and cohesively despite our differences.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Erin how she stated that the founders are a big factor in how the country starts out and their influences can determine how the country will prosper. I also agree that De Tocqueville wouldn't be happy with our lack of unity in America.
ReplyDeleteVery good response from you all. The article may have been a little deep, but it had meaning and I think you all were able to garner that meaning. Excellent response to each other. We are finally getting to the point of questioning and challenging each other in thought. That is exactly what fosters the surplus of mind.
ReplyDeleteAndrew - Swedish really?
ReplyDeleteListen, everybody. Is to respect everyone, regardless of race, religion or other cultural Ireland.
Isn't it insightful?
ReplyDelete